News Flash: Horne Says OK to More Dropouts

by David Safier

You be the judge.

As I write this, Tom Horne is conducting a live chat on the Star's website about social promotion. As you know if you read my earlier post on the topic, he's against social promotion. So I decided to ask a question, and Horne decided to answer.

See if you read this the same way I do:

David S (daves): Aren't you concerned about the potential for raising the dropout rate if we hold students back on a regular basis? The Star article mentioned that as a probable outcome.

Tom H (tomhorneaz): No. It doesn't do any good to keep students in school if they aren't learning. Fear of dropouts is sometimes used as an excuse for mediocrity. I categorically reject that.

"It doesn't do any good to keep students in school if they aren't learning." To me, that means, if they can't cut it, get rid of them! If ending social promotion increases the dropout rate, that's OK with Horne. Zero tolerance for failure!

Comments

[Francine Shacter]

Yikes!! this is our superintendent of public instruction? He just dismisses students who, for whatever reason, can't keep up? No wonder we have such a high incidence of incarceration! I am beyond disgusted - but proud to say I didn't vote for him!!!!!!!

[James A. Bretney]

Are you a member of the Teacher's Union?

[Mariana]

If ending social promotion increases the dropout rate is OK with me too. Schools are not free babysitting services for 16-17 year olds.
But...there are other ways to fix the problem.

First of all there is no one size fits all solution. Second, we have to have a specific goal which in my book is to provide good education to everybody according to their abilities -as opposed to increase this or decrease that.
Third, the goal must be realistic and achievable.
Forth, it has to be measurable. For instance graduation rate is one of the many ways to MEASURE the quality of the educational system, not to be mistaken with the goal/purpose which is QUALITY EDUCATION.

Here are a few ideas regarding social promotion, I'll try to be short.
1)Preschool. Very important. Time to learn basic skills, discipline, self discipline, team work, manners, respect, etc in a fun environment. After that, the fun is over (sorry guys); learning will become INTERESTING insted
2) Grades 1-2. Time to learn basics. And consequences: no "feal good" grading. Students with special needs should get extra help as early as possible. Mandatory summer school for failing students at the end of 2nd grade. Repet 2nd grade if still failing. Better now than later.
3)Grades 3-4. See 2) Better now than later.
4)Grades 5-6 (still in elementary school in some cases). Provide help where needed. Mandatory summer school for failing grades. I do not recommend repeting the grade for this age group, it can be used as a threat though.
5)JHS see 4)
If 1-4 followed, there shouldn't be many major educational problems with this group, but we are dealing now with emotional/behavioral issues.
6)Grades 9-10. Fair(=strict) grading shouldn't be new
to anyone. I assume everyone can read, write, etc by now. Mandatory summer school for failing grades. Repet if still failing.
7)Grades 10-12!!! NOW IT'S TIME TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT, new, inovative, apealing to those that are inclined to drop out: programms that lead to certification; aprentenships/ internships with the local business community; dual credits at the community college (I'm talking technical stuff);
If there are viable options there will be much less dropouts, the labor force will be better educated, etc

Mission accomplished.

[James A. Bretney]

We have to distinguish what is a parental responsibility and which is a state (school) responsibility. There comes a point where parents and students forfeit the privilege of an education.

Dropouts are a serious problem but holding the schools soley responsible is kinda of like blaming the policeman for not saving the injured drunk driver.

FACTS:
Dropouts (according to America's Promise Alliance) are disproportionately minority students.

Students who dropout are more likely to be incarcerated, rely on public assistance and social service and to go without health insurance. (Washington Times)

Minority students are 42% more likely to graduate if they attend Catholic Schools and 2.5 times more likely to graduate college. (University of Chicago)

The problem with school choice is three fold:

1. Minority voters who favor (and who would benefit from) school choice vote for politicians who don't.

2. Suburban voters from both parties is soft because they see school choice as a vehicle by which minorities enter "thier" schools.

3. The Teacher's union is against it. (WSJ Editorial 4/29)

* * *

David Saffier, are you a member of a teacher's union?

[Tom Horne]

To put the answer you quote in context, you should include the following additional question and answer:

Georgia B (gcb1): What are your proposals for the motivation of those students who for whatever reason refuse to improve in performance and become dropouts of no economic worth to our state?
Tom H (tomhorneaz): We have been studying ways to motivate these students. Please look at our website under dropout prevention. We have a list of Arizona programs that have shown success
Saying that fear of dropouts is not a reason to dumb down everyone’s curriculum is not to say I haven’t worked hard to reduce the dropout rate. I created a position for a dropout prevention specialist that didn’t exist when I took office, and she visited schools and prepared a study of best practices in dropout prevention that all schools can imitate. It is on our website http://www.ade.az.gov/asd/dropout/AZModelsofEffectiveStrategiesApp.pdf.

[Tom Horne]

To put the answer you quote in context, you should include the following additional question and answer:

Georgia B (gcb1): What are your proposals for the motivation of those students who for whatever reason refuse to improve in performance and become dropouts of no economic worth to our state?
Tom H (tomhorneaz): We have been studying ways to motivate these students. Please look at our website under dropout prevention. We have a list of Arizona programs that have shown success
Saying that fear of dropouts is not a reason to dumb down everyone’s curriculum is not to say I haven’t worked hard to reduce the dropout rate. I created a position for a dropout prevention specialist that didn’t exist when I took office, and she visited schools and prepared a study of best practices in dropout prevention that all schools can imitate. It is on our website http://www.ade.az.gov/asd/dropout/AZModelsofEffectiveStrategiesApp.pdf.

[James A. Bretney]

Wow, David, sounds like Mr. Horne is doing a pretty good job. He is addressing your concerns. I guess it is not what you would like to hear.

[Arizona Treatment Centers]

My contention was that there are many forms of applied math that would engage and benefit students as they enter the work world, especially technology careers. It's frustrating reading about the payday loan industry. Borrowers often are unable to figure out the terms of their loan or the actual amount they eventually will pay.

________
jackspar.

[Arizona Treatment Centers]

I knew an equilateral triangle has three equal sides (easy to remember by the name) and that an isosceles triangle had two, I deduced that a scalene triangle has no congruent sides.
The question "which of the following is not a function of x" followed by four x-y graphs caused me pause, and to skip to the next question. And, OK, I skipped several.

____
jack.